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	<title>Comments on: CBT In The Water Supply</title>
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	<description>In a mad world, all blogging is psychiatry blogging</description>
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		<title>By: DensityDuck</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/16/cbt-in-the-water-supply/#comment-221102</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DensityDuck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2015 00:54:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[&quot;the only way to overcome depression, anxiety, insecurities, and many other forms of akrasia is to convince yourself through reason into a correct and justified belief&quot;

So the old joke is right, and the lightbulb has to really &lt;I&gt;want&lt;/I&gt; to change.

And the question is, how do we convince the lightbulb that change is possible and desirable?

&quot;Have you ever convinced somebody that your beliefs are superior to theirs?&quot;

Hell, just look at how hard it is to convince people that 9/11 was an inside job.  (Ha ha ha, gotcha there, didn&#039;t I?)   But seriously, breaking people loose of a position that they have, by their lights, reasoned themselves into?  Unbelievably difficult.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;the only way to overcome depression, anxiety, insecurities, and many other forms of akrasia is to convince yourself through reason into a correct and justified belief&#8221;</p>
<p>So the old joke is right, and the lightbulb has to really <i>want</i> to change.</p>
<p>And the question is, how do we convince the lightbulb that change is possible and desirable?</p>
<p>&#8220;Have you ever convinced somebody that your beliefs are superior to theirs?&#8221;</p>
<p>Hell, just look at how hard it is to convince people that 9/11 was an inside job.  (Ha ha ha, gotcha there, didn&#8217;t I?)   But seriously, breaking people loose of a position that they have, by their lights, reasoned themselves into?  Unbelievably difficult.</p>
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		<title>By: Shenpen</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/16/cbt-in-the-water-supply/#comment-220790</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Shenpen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2015 10:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[@David Friedman

Specialization is obviously for safe and predictable environments  like Adam Smith&#039;s London smith who makes only nails as a big city will surely always need a lot of them. Heinlein was writing about adventure i.e. the opposite. 

Specialization requires exchange means it requires trust. Also exchanges are far too easy to tax. This why we in countries like Hungary do not specialize and do a lot DIY, because we don&#039;t trust a contractor not screw us over for painting our house and if we pay him under the table we could get busted for tax evasion but when investing time not money, DIY then not. This is also why we are fricking poor.

Finally, specialization kills fun. Anna the accountant goes home after work and relaxes by watering her plants. Bob the plant shop worker who watered plants for 8 hours a day would hate to do it again, maybe he relaxes by playing a videogame with accounting aspects as well like running a corp in EVE online.  Both feel the difference between work and play is doing something else. Variety is what differentiates work you don&#039;t like to do from play you like.

Ideal but unethical setup: I would be a Reneissance Man doing many different things, all financed by my serfs who specialize. There is a reason that from Aristotle to the Reneissance you need financial indepence to do interesting stuff which reduced to living someone else&#039;s labor. The laborers specialized, Aristotle didn&#039;t. Replace serfs with robots for better ethics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@David Friedman</p>
<p>Specialization is obviously for safe and predictable environments  like Adam Smith&#8217;s London smith who makes only nails as a big city will surely always need a lot of them. Heinlein was writing about adventure i.e. the opposite. </p>
<p>Specialization requires exchange means it requires trust. Also exchanges are far too easy to tax. This why we in countries like Hungary do not specialize and do a lot DIY, because we don&#8217;t trust a contractor not screw us over for painting our house and if we pay him under the table we could get busted for tax evasion but when investing time not money, DIY then not. This is also why we are fricking poor.</p>
<p>Finally, specialization kills fun. Anna the accountant goes home after work and relaxes by watering her plants. Bob the plant shop worker who watered plants for 8 hours a day would hate to do it again, maybe he relaxes by playing a videogame with accounting aspects as well like running a corp in EVE online.  Both feel the difference between work and play is doing something else. Variety is what differentiates work you don&#8217;t like to do from play you like.</p>
<p>Ideal but unethical setup: I would be a Reneissance Man doing many different things, all financed by my serfs who specialize. There is a reason that from Aristotle to the Reneissance you need financial indepence to do interesting stuff which reduced to living someone else&#8217;s labor. The laborers specialized, Aristotle didn&#8217;t. Replace serfs with robots for better ethics.</p>
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		<title>By: Shenpen</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/16/cbt-in-the-water-supply/#comment-220787</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Shenpen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:56:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[@Onyomi: they need to run on that? Can&#039;t they just lie in their election promises? People forget them by the next election anyway.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Onyomi: they need to run on that? Can&#8217;t they just lie in their election promises? People forget them by the next election anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/16/cbt-in-the-water-supply/#comment-220563</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2015 18:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=3698#comment-220563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It looks to me like you have a good handle on what CBT is.

My biggest problem with CBT is it&#039;s total disregard for the unconscious.  Current understanding of the brain says that we have 5 different memory systems broken down into implicit and explicit memory.  CBT only works with explicit memory and ignores (some people deny) the existence of implicit memory.  Emotions are primarily implicit and logic is primarily explicit.  You&#039;re going to have a really hard time changing a person&#039;s implicit memory structure with purely logical techniques.  Behavioral, Gestalt, and psychodynamic techniques are better equipped to address the implicit memory problems.

The phenomenon you point out about CBT working with intelligent people, rides this line as well.  There is a strong cultural idea that intelligence is not emotional.  Some of this is the straw vulcan phenomenon.  Some of this is that emotions are not rational and really do make us choose un-intelligent choices.  And some of this is that the brain uses competing resources to be empathetic or logical.  On some level, our brains can&#039;t do both.
http://www.spring.org.uk/2015/01/the-weird-reason-its-hard-to-empathise-and-be-logical-at-the-same-time.php

Additionally, proper CBT requires a formal diagnosis.  CBT needs a disease to cure.  Diagnosis in the therapy world is highly contentious.  This is called the disease model and a great many therapists do not like this model of human distress.  http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/the-dirtiest-word-in-the-dsm-0130147

This diagnosis model is partly why CBT is so popular these days.  Insurance operates on the disease model and CBT has provided insurance a clear path for labeling dysfunction.  Whether the labels are correct or even helpful is entirely unknown, but insurance companies find them easy so they use it.  This means that CBT gets more funding from insurance where other therapies would not, even though they have similar outcomes.

CBT also has bad outcomes on the long term scale.  It&#039;s almost guaranteed that you will relapse with CBT.
http://ebmh.bmj.com/content/8/3/75.full

A lot of that result has to do with poor etiology in the therapeutic world.  All of these theories and treatments address symptoms and fail to understand causes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It looks to me like you have a good handle on what CBT is.</p>
<p>My biggest problem with CBT is it&#8217;s total disregard for the unconscious.  Current understanding of the brain says that we have 5 different memory systems broken down into implicit and explicit memory.  CBT only works with explicit memory and ignores (some people deny) the existence of implicit memory.  Emotions are primarily implicit and logic is primarily explicit.  You&#8217;re going to have a really hard time changing a person&#8217;s implicit memory structure with purely logical techniques.  Behavioral, Gestalt, and psychodynamic techniques are better equipped to address the implicit memory problems.</p>
<p>The phenomenon you point out about CBT working with intelligent people, rides this line as well.  There is a strong cultural idea that intelligence is not emotional.  Some of this is the straw vulcan phenomenon.  Some of this is that emotions are not rational and really do make us choose un-intelligent choices.  And some of this is that the brain uses competing resources to be empathetic or logical.  On some level, our brains can&#8217;t do both.<br />
<a href="http://www.spring.org.uk/2015/01/the-weird-reason-its-hard-to-empathise-and-be-logical-at-the-same-time.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.spring.org.uk/2015/01/the-weird-reason-its-hard-to-empathise-and-be-logical-at-the-same-time.php</a></p>
<p>Additionally, proper CBT requires a formal diagnosis.  CBT needs a disease to cure.  Diagnosis in the therapy world is highly contentious.  This is called the disease model and a great many therapists do not like this model of human distress.  <a href="http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/the-dirtiest-word-in-the-dsm-0130147" rel="nofollow">http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/the-dirtiest-word-in-the-dsm-0130147</a></p>
<p>This diagnosis model is partly why CBT is so popular these days.  Insurance operates on the disease model and CBT has provided insurance a clear path for labeling dysfunction.  Whether the labels are correct or even helpful is entirely unknown, but insurance companies find them easy so they use it.  This means that CBT gets more funding from insurance where other therapies would not, even though they have similar outcomes.</p>
<p>CBT also has bad outcomes on the long term scale.  It&#8217;s almost guaranteed that you will relapse with CBT.<br />
<a href="http://ebmh.bmj.com/content/8/3/75.full" rel="nofollow">http://ebmh.bmj.com/content/8/3/75.full</a></p>
<p>A lot of that result has to do with poor etiology in the therapeutic world.  All of these theories and treatments address symptoms and fail to understand causes.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/16/cbt-in-the-water-supply/#comment-220475</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2015 15:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[The thing is, that&#039;s not possible.  It&#039;s kind of like learning.  A good teacher recognizes that they can&#039;t actually teach you.  You are responsible for the learning, the teacher can only facilitate your learning.  A therapist can not solve your problems, you are responsible for solving your problems.  The therapist can facilitate your growth and provide you with information, but ultimately you have to own that growth and do it yourself.

The actual technique used in counseling is largely irrelevant.  The measured effectiveness of any technique is incredibly low.  It is the therapeutic alliance and the client&#039;s contributing factors that determine the success of therapy, not the technique or theory used.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing is, that&#8217;s not possible.  It&#8217;s kind of like learning.  A good teacher recognizes that they can&#8217;t actually teach you.  You are responsible for the learning, the teacher can only facilitate your learning.  A therapist can not solve your problems, you are responsible for solving your problems.  The therapist can facilitate your growth and provide you with information, but ultimately you have to own that growth and do it yourself.</p>
<p>The actual technique used in counseling is largely irrelevant.  The measured effectiveness of any technique is incredibly low.  It is the therapeutic alliance and the client&#8217;s contributing factors that determine the success of therapy, not the technique or theory used.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/16/cbt-in-the-water-supply/#comment-220462</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2015 14:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[&quot;On the other hand, maybe you’re idealizing that past a bit?&quot;

Not really.  A study done in the 80&#039;s had people report they had on average 4 close friends.  That same study repeated in the late 2000&#039;s had that number drop to 1.

More information here:
http://www.amazon.com/Loneliness-Human-Nature-Social-Connection/dp/0393335283]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;On the other hand, maybe you’re idealizing that past a bit?&#8221;</p>
<p>Not really.  A study done in the 80&#8217;s had people report they had on average 4 close friends.  That same study repeated in the late 2000&#8217;s had that number drop to 1.</p>
<p>More information here:<br />
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Loneliness-Human-Nature-Social-Connection/dp/0393335283" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Loneliness-Human-Nature-Social-Connection/dp/0393335283</a></p>
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		<title>By: Marc Whipple</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/16/cbt-in-the-water-supply/#comment-220412</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marc Whipple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=3698#comment-220412</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[TMK: Yep. Not disputing that the &lt;i&gt;perception&lt;/i&gt; is the problem. However, obfuscating it by purposefully or inadvertently implying that the perception is &lt;i&gt;accurate&lt;/i&gt; makes the problem harder to address.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TMK: Yep. Not disputing that the <i>perception</i> is the problem. However, obfuscating it by purposefully or inadvertently implying that the perception is <i>accurate</i> makes the problem harder to address.</p>
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		<title>By: TMK</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/16/cbt-in-the-water-supply/#comment-220402</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TMK]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[&gt; the world is more predictable than it ever has been. We are constantly told that it is no

Perception is all that matters (in this case). Obviously.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; the world is more predictable than it ever has been. We are constantly told that it is no</p>
<p>Perception is all that matters (in this case). Obviously.</p>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/16/cbt-in-the-water-supply/#comment-220338</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2015 04:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I grew up with such a voice. It berated non-stop me for years, and it was certainly convinced of its own invulnerability. I was quite surprised how easy it was when I told it to &lt;em&gt;stop existing&lt;/em&gt; and it did.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I grew up with such a voice. It berated non-stop me for years, and it was certainly convinced of its own invulnerability. I was quite surprised how easy it was when I told it to <em>stop existing</em> and it did.</p>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/16/cbt-in-the-water-supply/#comment-220336</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2015 04:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Well, the point isn&#039;t to make the guy happy. It&#039;s to make him not depressed; i.e., to allow him to try to fix parts of his sucky life, rather than get overwhelmed and collapse.

Why is therapy that makes you unconditionally happy better than therapy that just stops your misery spiraling out of control, while meds that make you unconditionally happy are evil and we have to swear up and down that they just stop your misery spiraling out of control?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the point isn&#8217;t to make the guy happy. It&#8217;s to make him not depressed; i.e., to allow him to try to fix parts of his sucky life, rather than get overwhelmed and collapse.</p>
<p>Why is therapy that makes you unconditionally happy better than therapy that just stops your misery spiraling out of control, while meds that make you unconditionally happy are evil and we have to swear up and down that they just stop your misery spiraling out of control?</p>
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