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	<title>Comments on: Joint Over- and Underdiagnosis</title>
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	<description>In a mad world, all blogging is psychiatry blogging</description>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/17/joint-over-and-underdiagnosis/#comment-147529</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ted]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2014 12:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I look forward to the day when people seek psychiatric treatments as often as they seek dental treatments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I look forward to the day when people seek psychiatric treatments as often as they seek dental treatments.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Speyer</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/17/joint-over-and-underdiagnosis/#comment-147312</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel Speyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2014 18:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[And several years later, her creator (spoilers) gives more details

http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2600/fc02547.htm]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And several years later, her creator (spoilers) gives more details</p>
<p><a href="http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2600/fc02547.htm" rel="nofollow">http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff2600/fc02547.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/17/joint-over-and-underdiagnosis/#comment-147192</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2014 22:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Yes, there are systematic EEG differences,  although personally I&#039;m philosophically inclined to think behavioral tests are what really matter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, there are systematic EEG differences,  although personally I&#8217;m philosophically inclined to think behavioral tests are what really matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Berna</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/17/joint-over-and-underdiagnosis/#comment-147102</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Berna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:19:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=2841#comment-147102</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your remark about &#039;character flaws&#039; reminded me of this awesome post: &lt;a href=&quot;http://celandine13.livejournal.com/33599.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Errors vs. Bugs and the End of Stupidity&lt;/a&gt;. TL;DR: don&#039;t moralize, fix the underlying problem. (But do read the article, it&#039;s really good.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your remark about &#8216;character flaws&#8217; reminded me of this awesome post: <a href="http://celandine13.livejournal.com/33599.html" rel="nofollow">Errors vs. Bugs and the End of Stupidity</a>. TL;DR: don&#8217;t moralize, fix the underlying problem. (But do read the article, it&#8217;s really good.)</p>
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		<title>By: Creutzer</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/17/joint-over-and-underdiagnosis/#comment-147072</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Creutzer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2014 07:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Is EEG actually useful in diagnosing ADHD? I only know about it being done for the purpose of checking whether you&#039;re liable to develop epilepsy if they give you stimulants.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is EEG actually useful in diagnosing ADHD? I only know about it being done for the purpose of checking whether you&#8217;re liable to develop epilepsy if they give you stimulants.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/17/joint-over-and-underdiagnosis/#comment-147053</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2014 04:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=2841#comment-147053</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I outlined what happened during my diagnosis in reply to Scott&#039;s comment.
(I should probably have replied to your comment, instead of Scott&#039;s - sorry!)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I outlined what happened during my diagnosis in reply to Scott&#8217;s comment.<br />
(I should probably have replied to your comment, instead of Scott&#8217;s &#8211; sorry!)</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/17/joint-over-and-underdiagnosis/#comment-147052</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2014 04:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=2841#comment-147052</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[From what I&#039;ve understood, it varies tremendously. Some people just ask some questions and hand out pills. Some people go so far as to do an EEG. When I was diagnosed with ADHD they did very thorough behavioral testing, which I personally would consider the gold-standard.

I took the WIAS, and they looked at the ratio between my working memory scores (which were around the population average) and the rest of my IQ (which was above the population average, but apparently average for the lesswrong-o-sphere) The ratio indicated my working memory was much worse than the rest of my scores would predict, which indicates ADHD, but the psychologist was unsure if that warranted diagnosis because while I did show the selective working memory deficit, my working memory was technically average. (I&#039;ve pretty much spent my entire life coming up with compensation strategies)

I also took the TOVA, which tests response inhibition, in which I did so poorly that the responses could not be scored. It was very humiliating. All you have to do is press a button when a symbol come sup, and not press a button when a different symbol comes up. I couldn&#039;t do it. That was the test which really settled the diagnosis in the psychologist&#039;s mind. (Before the TOVA and the digit span, they were kind of teasing me about my scores and wondering why I bothered to come in, which was both weirdly ego boosting and frustrating at the same time - I was afraid I wouldn&#039;t get help at first)

I also took Wisconsin Card Sorting, Stroop test, dislexia screening, and so on, which I passed with flying colors, screening out various other disorders.

I&#039;m a little surprised you don&#039;t know for sure... aren&#039;t you a psychiatrist? (that&#039;s not intended as rudeness, just curiosity as to why they don&#039;t train psychiatrists to know these things)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I&#8217;ve understood, it varies tremendously. Some people just ask some questions and hand out pills. Some people go so far as to do an EEG. When I was diagnosed with ADHD they did very thorough behavioral testing, which I personally would consider the gold-standard.</p>
<p>I took the WIAS, and they looked at the ratio between my working memory scores (which were around the population average) and the rest of my IQ (which was above the population average, but apparently average for the lesswrong-o-sphere) The ratio indicated my working memory was much worse than the rest of my scores would predict, which indicates ADHD, but the psychologist was unsure if that warranted diagnosis because while I did show the selective working memory deficit, my working memory was technically average. (I&#8217;ve pretty much spent my entire life coming up with compensation strategies)</p>
<p>I also took the TOVA, which tests response inhibition, in which I did so poorly that the responses could not be scored. It was very humiliating. All you have to do is press a button when a symbol come sup, and not press a button when a different symbol comes up. I couldn&#8217;t do it. That was the test which really settled the diagnosis in the psychologist&#8217;s mind. (Before the TOVA and the digit span, they were kind of teasing me about my scores and wondering why I bothered to come in, which was both weirdly ego boosting and frustrating at the same time &#8211; I was afraid I wouldn&#8217;t get help at first)</p>
<p>I also took Wisconsin Card Sorting, Stroop test, dislexia screening, and so on, which I passed with flying colors, screening out various other disorders.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a little surprised you don&#8217;t know for sure&#8230; aren&#8217;t you a psychiatrist? (that&#8217;s not intended as rudeness, just curiosity as to why they don&#8217;t train psychiatrists to know these things)</p>
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		<title>By: Illuminati Initiate</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/17/joint-over-and-underdiagnosis/#comment-147031</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Illuminati Initiate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2014 01:03:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=2841#comment-147031</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Looking at the Justina story again the hospital was certainly in the wrong there, but something seems fishy about that whole story... I don&#039;t understand why the hospital felt like they needed to take her away to treat psychosomatic illness? And if there is zero evidence of abuse why was this allowed to continue? There does not seem to be much good sources on the case. It seems like something is being left out.

I actually do have a problem with forced psychiatric drug use regardless of age or mental competence (except maybe in very extreme circumstances, though as a consequentialist I could say that about anything), and think they should be treated differently from &quot;physical&quot; (ugh that sounds so duelist) medicine. I missed the psychiatric drug part when I first read the story. Though in this case I think whether or not to take psychiatric drugs should have been up to Justina rather than her parents or doctors.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking at the Justina story again the hospital was certainly in the wrong there, but something seems fishy about that whole story&#8230; I don&#8217;t understand why the hospital felt like they needed to take her away to treat psychosomatic illness? And if there is zero evidence of abuse why was this allowed to continue? There does not seem to be much good sources on the case. It seems like something is being left out.</p>
<p>I actually do have a problem with forced psychiatric drug use regardless of age or mental competence (except maybe in very extreme circumstances, though as a consequentialist I could say that about anything), and think they should be treated differently from &#8220;physical&#8221; (ugh that sounds so duelist) medicine. I missed the psychiatric drug part when I first read the story. Though in this case I think whether or not to take psychiatric drugs should have been up to Justina rather than her parents or doctors.</p>
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		<title>By: Illuminati Initiate</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/17/joint-over-and-underdiagnosis/#comment-146806</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Illuminati Initiate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2014 00:11:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=2841#comment-146806</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of course I don&#039;t think children are mentally competent enough to exercise all adult rights. But they certainly should be able to exercise some, for example, the right to &quot;free speech&quot;, which they are routinely denied. Obviously children need to have their actions to some extent constrained by their legal guardians but I think there should be legal limits to how restrictive it can get. For an example of the people who want to keep their power to harm children, see some of them&#039;s (grammar?) website here http://www.parentalrights.org/ (I AM NOT ENDORSING THAT WEBSITE I AM SAYING THEY ARE BAD).

As for the medicine thing I think their should be guidelines as to what type of medicine and when young children should be required to take. The status of various vaccines as mandatory for should be decided on a case to case basis*, and any medicine that has a reasonable chance of being life saving and/or long-term debilitation-preventing should be given regardless of what the guardians say. Older minors should have some level of say in their own medication.  Obviously I don&#039;t know all the details of how this should be set up, I&#039;m not a bureaucrat. 

I didn&#039;t know who Justina Pelletier was so I just Googled her. From my quick glance I don&#039;t have the information to judge that specific case and can&#039;t really find enough. But these parents are certainly abusive: http://www.ohio.com/news/local/amish-family-flees-to-avoid-chemotherapy-for-girl-with-cancer-1.448261 . As are parents who refuse to give their children important vaccinations.

As to overthrowing governments, if there is a group with enough power and motive to possibly try then there is motive to act like the modern meaning of tyranny. &quot;Precedent&quot; seems largely irrelevant. Also I would like to point out that many government throughout history have acted like that despite being in power for a long time and not being very threatened. And almost all governments started out as tyrannies, exceptions include some peaceful secessions (like what Scotland just tried).

*Edit: &quot;case to case basis&quot; meant between different vaccines. Though actually exceptions should be made for vaccine allergies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course I don&#8217;t think children are mentally competent enough to exercise all adult rights. But they certainly should be able to exercise some, for example, the right to &#8220;free speech&#8221;, which they are routinely denied. Obviously children need to have their actions to some extent constrained by their legal guardians but I think there should be legal limits to how restrictive it can get. For an example of the people who want to keep their power to harm children, see some of them&#8217;s (grammar?) website here <a href="http://www.parentalrights.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.parentalrights.org/</a> (I AM NOT ENDORSING THAT WEBSITE I AM SAYING THEY ARE BAD).</p>
<p>As for the medicine thing I think their should be guidelines as to what type of medicine and when young children should be required to take. The status of various vaccines as mandatory for should be decided on a case to case basis*, and any medicine that has a reasonable chance of being life saving and/or long-term debilitation-preventing should be given regardless of what the guardians say. Older minors should have some level of say in their own medication.  Obviously I don&#8217;t know all the details of how this should be set up, I&#8217;m not a bureaucrat. </p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t know who Justina Pelletier was so I just Googled her. From my quick glance I don&#8217;t have the information to judge that specific case and can&#8217;t really find enough. But these parents are certainly abusive: <a href="http://www.ohio.com/news/local/amish-family-flees-to-avoid-chemotherapy-for-girl-with-cancer-1.448261" rel="nofollow">http://www.ohio.com/news/local/amish-family-flees-to-avoid-chemotherapy-for-girl-with-cancer-1.448261</a> . As are parents who refuse to give their children important vaccinations.</p>
<p>As to overthrowing governments, if there is a group with enough power and motive to possibly try then there is motive to act like the modern meaning of tyranny. &#8220;Precedent&#8221; seems largely irrelevant. Also I would like to point out that many government throughout history have acted like that despite being in power for a long time and not being very threatened. And almost all governments started out as tyrannies, exceptions include some peaceful secessions (like what Scotland just tried).</p>
<p>*Edit: &#8220;case to case basis&#8221; meant between different vaccines. Though actually exceptions should be made for vaccine allergies.</p>
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		<title>By: Erik</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/17/joint-over-and-underdiagnosis/#comment-146771</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Erik]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2014 21:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s been on LessWrong a while. These articles are hopefully useful if you want more on the topic:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/o0/where_to_draw_the_boundary/

http://lesswrong.com/lw/o2/mutual_information_and_density_in_thingspace/

http://lesswrong.com/lw/o3/superexponential_conceptspace_and_simple_words/

&lt;blockquote&gt;If you define &quot;eluctromugnetism&quot; to include lightning, include compasses, exclude light, and include Mesmer&#039;s &quot;animal magnetism&quot; (what we now call hypnosis), then you will have some trouble asking &quot;How does eluctromugnetism work?&quot; You have lumped together things which do not belong together, and excluded others that would be needed to complete a set.  (This example is historically plausible; Mesmer came before Faraday.)

We could say that eluctromugnetism is a wrong word, a boundary in thingspace that loops around and swerves through the clusters, a cut that fails to carve reality along its natural joints.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s been on LessWrong a while. These articles are hopefully useful if you want more on the topic:</p>
<p><a href="http://lesswrong.com/lw/o0/where_to_draw_the_boundary/" rel="nofollow">http://lesswrong.com/lw/o0/where_to_draw_the_boundary/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://lesswrong.com/lw/o2/mutual_information_and_density_in_thingspace/" rel="nofollow">http://lesswrong.com/lw/o2/mutual_information_and_density_in_thingspace/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://lesswrong.com/lw/o3/superexponential_conceptspace_and_simple_words/" rel="nofollow">http://lesswrong.com/lw/o3/superexponential_conceptspace_and_simple_words/</a></p>
<blockquote><p>If you define &#8220;eluctromugnetism&#8221; to include lightning, include compasses, exclude light, and include Mesmer&#8217;s &#8220;animal magnetism&#8221; (what we now call hypnosis), then you will have some trouble asking &#8220;How does eluctromugnetism work?&#8221; You have lumped together things which do not belong together, and excluded others that would be needed to complete a set.  (This example is historically plausible; Mesmer came before Faraday.)</p>
<p>We could say that eluctromugnetism is a wrong word, a boundary in thingspace that loops around and swerves through the clusters, a cut that fails to carve reality along its natural joints.</p></blockquote>
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