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	<title>Comments on: Nobody Likes A Tattletale</title>
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	<description>In a mad world, all blogging is psychiatry blogging</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/23/nobody-likes-a-tattletale/#comment-142180</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2014 02:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[But rationalists don&#039;t believe the stakes are nearly as... large in such a primate-salient way as &quot;eternal torture&quot;. On the scale of surprising akrasia, it&#039;s much closer to &quot;why isn&#039;t he moving his hand OUT OF THE FIRE?&quot;...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But rationalists don&#8217;t believe the stakes are nearly as&#8230; large in such a primate-salient way as &#8220;eternal torture&#8221;. On the scale of surprising akrasia, it&#8217;s much closer to &#8220;why isn&#8217;t he moving his hand OUT OF THE FIRE?&#8221;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ialdabaoth</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/23/nobody-likes-a-tattletale/#comment-141367</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ialdabaoth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Sep 2014 04:34:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[You appear to have replied to the wrong post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You appear to have replied to the wrong post.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Crowe</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/23/nobody-likes-a-tattletale/#comment-139679</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alan Crowe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2014 19:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=2675#comment-139679</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I imagine this back story. Mr A and Mr B go into rehab. Mr B has been through rehab before. He knows how it goes: &quot;He starts with good intentions. He has a bad day. He smuggles in some heroin and gets high in rehab. It goes down hill from there; another chance at rehab wasted.&quot;

Mr B is trying to hold it together. Mr B tells himself that if he smuggles in heroin and Mr A sees, then Mr A will rat him out. Mr B tells himself this every day and so far he has resisted temptation.

Disaster! Mr B has seen Mr A with heroin. Now what? If he stays silent Mr A owes him one. That wasn&#039;t the plan. Mr B knows how this ends. Mr A owes him one, so he can smuggle in some heroin himself without having to hide it from Mr A. That makes it too easy, that is what is going to happen. Alternatively he can rat on Mr A himself. On the one hand that will make him unpopular. On the other hand, the thing he has been telling himself and depending on (that he can&#039;t smuggle in heroin because Mr A will see it and rat on Mr B) becomes gloriously true. Mr B takes the alternative path and rats out Mr A, for the sake of himself, Mr B.

In this version Mr A has got Mr B into a sticky situation (by failing to conceal the thing Mr B doesn&#039;t want to know about, thus burdening Mr B with dangerous knowledge) and Mr B is trying to get Mr B out of it without any real concern for the consequence for Mr A.

So Mr B is not being a hero, far from it, but &lt;em&gt;tattletale&lt;/em&gt;? No! That is missing the point. Mr A just wanted to get high, but having been discovered, the thing he did not intend but cannot now disavow is the implied offer: &quot;Don&#039;t tell on me and I won&#039;t tell on you.&quot; Mr B is turning down the implied offer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I imagine this back story. Mr A and Mr B go into rehab. Mr B has been through rehab before. He knows how it goes: &#8220;He starts with good intentions. He has a bad day. He smuggles in some heroin and gets high in rehab. It goes down hill from there; another chance at rehab wasted.&#8221;</p>
<p>Mr B is trying to hold it together. Mr B tells himself that if he smuggles in heroin and Mr A sees, then Mr A will rat him out. Mr B tells himself this every day and so far he has resisted temptation.</p>
<p>Disaster! Mr B has seen Mr A with heroin. Now what? If he stays silent Mr A owes him one. That wasn&#8217;t the plan. Mr B knows how this ends. Mr A owes him one, so he can smuggle in some heroin himself without having to hide it from Mr A. That makes it too easy, that is what is going to happen. Alternatively he can rat on Mr A himself. On the one hand that will make him unpopular. On the other hand, the thing he has been telling himself and depending on (that he can&#8217;t smuggle in heroin because Mr A will see it and rat on Mr B) becomes gloriously true. Mr B takes the alternative path and rats out Mr A, for the sake of himself, Mr B.</p>
<p>In this version Mr A has got Mr B into a sticky situation (by failing to conceal the thing Mr B doesn&#8217;t want to know about, thus burdening Mr B with dangerous knowledge) and Mr B is trying to get Mr B out of it without any real concern for the consequence for Mr A.</p>
<p>So Mr B is not being a hero, far from it, but <em>tattletale</em>? No! That is missing the point. Mr A just wanted to get high, but having been discovered, the thing he did not intend but cannot now disavow is the implied offer: &#8220;Don&#8217;t tell on me and I won&#8217;t tell on you.&#8221; Mr B is turning down the implied offer.</p>
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		<title>By: houseboatonstyx</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/23/nobody-likes-a-tattletale/#comment-139175</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[houseboatonstyx]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 11:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[&#039;The authorities&#039; is not a monolith. Often the authority you would report to -- classroom teacher, cop on the beat -- is not the authority who made the rules, and may be blinking at a violation because zie doesn&#039;t agree with the rule.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;The authorities&#8217; is not a monolith. Often the authority you would report to &#8212; classroom teacher, cop on the beat &#8212; is not the authority who made the rules, and may be blinking at a violation because zie doesn&#8217;t agree with the rule.</p>
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		<title>By: houseboatonstyx</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/23/nobody-likes-a-tattletale/#comment-139122</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[houseboatonstyx]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 07:35:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Please distinguish the importance of the rule itself, from the importance of minor violations of it. &quot;Drive on the right-hand side of the (U.S.) road&quot; is a very important rule. Most of the violations of it are minor, so not worth reporting. When a car goes far enough on the wrong side for long enough to actually  become dangerous, it is worth calling the Highway Patrol to check for a drunk driver. But if the H.P. received reports of all the minor violations, they would have no time to take care pf the important cases.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please distinguish the importance of the rule itself, from the importance of minor violations of it. &#8220;Drive on the right-hand side of the (U.S.) road&#8221; is a very important rule. Most of the violations of it are minor, so not worth reporting. When a car goes far enough on the wrong side for long enough to actually  become dangerous, it is worth calling the Highway Patrol to check for a drunk driver. But if the H.P. received reports of all the minor violations, they would have no time to take care pf the important cases.</p>
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		<title>By: lunatic</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/23/nobody-likes-a-tattletale/#comment-139078</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lunatic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 04:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I see your point, and &quot;thanks&quot; is useful as a low-key response to these things (as I suppose every bureaucracy ever has discovered), but it is also possible to choose a low-key response that doesn&#039;t convey appreciation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see your point, and &#8220;thanks&#8221; is useful as a low-key response to these things (as I suppose every bureaucracy ever has discovered), but it is also possible to choose a low-key response that doesn&#8217;t convey appreciation.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/23/nobody-likes-a-tattletale/#comment-138977</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Ialdabaoth,

I don&#039;t know what exactly Deiseach&#039;s reasoning here is, but &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.scifiwright.com/2013/10/descendants-and-emulations/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this passage&lt;/a&gt; might shed some light on where she&#039;s coming from:

&lt;blockquote&gt;“I ain’t done nothing wrong.”

“Where love and faith are concerned, how can any man not do wrong? Are you indeed superhuman in that way? Earlier you were boasting that you were not.”

“I weren’t boasting. Just saying.”

“Do you have faith in her?”

“What’s that?”

“Do you have faith she will return?”

“Why are your priests always on about faith?”

“Why do doctors talk about diseases? Faith is not some mystical glamour; it is a very real, hard, practical solution to a very real and hard problem: the problem of enduring the unendurable. If you knew she loved you, and you knew she would make every effort, including superhuman effort since she is, after all, a superhuman, you would not give into impatience, or wrath, or self-pity, or despair.”

“Yearning to see you wife again ain’t a sin, Padre!”

“Despair is.”

“What makes you think it’s a sin?”

“What makes &lt;b&gt;you&lt;/b&gt; think so? I hear guilt in your voice, First Ancestor.”

“So what would this practical solution of yours be?”

 “Confess it now. I will impose a penance on you to last until your Rania returns to you, the penance being that you must wait in hopeful joy until she comes again, without surrendering to hopelessness.”

“But I got to wait anyway. I got no choice.”

“The suffering will be easier if you know it is penance. Suffering to amend for your own wrongs can be endured. Pointless suffering cannot be endured.”

“You think she ain’t coming back for me?”

“I cannot say. Nor can you. There are things we simply do not know and cannot know. When we face the unknown, there are two and only two responses: the sane and tame surrender of despair and the mad and wild defiance of hope.”

“C’mon, you put it that way, there’s no real choice. Madness is common sense.”

“There is always a choice, and therefore always a chance to choose wrongly. But hope is hard when we are burdened.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ialdabaoth,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know what exactly Deiseach&#8217;s reasoning here is, but <a href="http://www.scifiwright.com/2013/10/descendants-and-emulations/" rel="nofollow">this passage</a> might shed some light on where she&#8217;s coming from:</p>
<blockquote><p>“I ain’t done nothing wrong.”</p>
<p>“Where love and faith are concerned, how can any man not do wrong? Are you indeed superhuman in that way? Earlier you were boasting that you were not.”</p>
<p>“I weren’t boasting. Just saying.”</p>
<p>“Do you have faith in her?”</p>
<p>“What’s that?”</p>
<p>“Do you have faith she will return?”</p>
<p>“Why are your priests always on about faith?”</p>
<p>“Why do doctors talk about diseases? Faith is not some mystical glamour; it is a very real, hard, practical solution to a very real and hard problem: the problem of enduring the unendurable. If you knew she loved you, and you knew she would make every effort, including superhuman effort since she is, after all, a superhuman, you would not give into impatience, or wrath, or self-pity, or despair.”</p>
<p>“Yearning to see you wife again ain’t a sin, Padre!”</p>
<p>“Despair is.”</p>
<p>“What makes you think it’s a sin?”</p>
<p>“What makes <b>you</b> think so? I hear guilt in your voice, First Ancestor.”</p>
<p>“So what would this practical solution of yours be?”</p>
<p> “Confess it now. I will impose a penance on you to last until your Rania returns to you, the penance being that you must wait in hopeful joy until she comes again, without surrendering to hopelessness.”</p>
<p>“But I got to wait anyway. I got no choice.”</p>
<p>“The suffering will be easier if you know it is penance. Suffering to amend for your own wrongs can be endured. Pointless suffering cannot be endured.”</p>
<p>“You think she ain’t coming back for me?”</p>
<p>“I cannot say. Nor can you. There are things we simply do not know and cannot know. When we face the unknown, there are two and only two responses: the sane and tame surrender of despair and the mad and wild defiance of hope.”</p>
<p>“C’mon, you put it that way, there’s no real choice. Madness is common sense.”</p>
<p>“There is always a choice, and therefore always a chance to choose wrongly. But hope is hard when we are burdened.”</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Ialdabaoth</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/23/nobody-likes-a-tattletale/#comment-138963</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ialdabaoth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:34:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[This sounds precisely like the kind of classic double-bind that someone who would frequent drug rehab clinics would be put into.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This sounds precisely like the kind of classic double-bind that someone who would frequent drug rehab clinics would be put into.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Quinton</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/23/nobody-likes-a-tattletale/#comment-138956</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. Quinton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=2675#comment-138956</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oddly enough, a friend of mine was in a similar situation. This friend is also in a rehab-ish situation. One of my friend&#039;s co-rehab-ish friends was still doing drugs, and this person offered my friend some drugs one day. My friend didn&#039;t accept the offer, nor tell anyone about the offer, nor that the other person was still using. Somehow, the rehab board found out about this situation, and the rehab board explicitly told my friend that they should have reported the drug use/offer to use drugs to the rehab board. The fact that my friend &lt;i&gt;didn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; tattle was, as the board put it, almost grounds for failing the rehab program.

I&#039;m hearing all of this second hand of course, so I don&#039;t know how accurate my retelling is. Maybe the tattle heroin addict had a previous situation like that and learned that (certain) rehab boards prefer tattle-tellers?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oddly enough, a friend of mine was in a similar situation. This friend is also in a rehab-ish situation. One of my friend&#8217;s co-rehab-ish friends was still doing drugs, and this person offered my friend some drugs one day. My friend didn&#8217;t accept the offer, nor tell anyone about the offer, nor that the other person was still using. Somehow, the rehab board found out about this situation, and the rehab board explicitly told my friend that they should have reported the drug use/offer to use drugs to the rehab board. The fact that my friend <i>didn&#8217;t</i> tattle was, as the board put it, almost grounds for failing the rehab program.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m hearing all of this second hand of course, so I don&#8217;t know how accurate my retelling is. Maybe the tattle heroin addict had a previous situation like that and learned that (certain) rehab boards prefer tattle-tellers?</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/23/nobody-likes-a-tattletale/#comment-138865</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Growing up I always understood tattling to mean “reporting a violation of the rules to an authority figure in an instance where the aggravation the authority figure must suffer to fix it exceeds the harm the violation did.”&quot;

In the eyes of the authority figure, who normally doesn&#039;t mind in the slightest harm done to the victim.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Growing up I always understood tattling to mean “reporting a violation of the rules to an authority figure in an instance where the aggravation the authority figure must suffer to fix it exceeds the harm the violation did.”&#8221;</p>
<p>In the eyes of the authority figure, who normally doesn&#8217;t mind in the slightest harm done to the victim.</p>
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