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	<title>Comments on: Confounder Of The Day: How Sexy Your Parents Were</title>
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	<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/18/confounder-of-the-day-how-sexy-your-parents-were/</link>
	<description>In a mad world, all blogging is psychiatry blogging</description>
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		<title>By: Scott Alexander</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/18/confounder-of-the-day-how-sexy-your-parents-were/#comment-67408</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott Alexander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2014 06:07:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=1870#comment-67408</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Can&#039;t figure out how to get rid of it. The Akismet does nothing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can&#8217;t figure out how to get rid of it. The Akismet does nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Knight</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/18/confounder-of-the-day-how-sexy-your-parents-were/#comment-64038</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Douglas Knight]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2014 01:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=1870#comment-64038</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Since Oster discusses a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wrrh308.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/JAMA-Study.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;different paper&lt;/a&gt;, I doubt she reads SSC. Indeed, her paper is a month newer than Scott&#039;s first paper, that presumably prompted him. I don&#039;t know why she claims it is from &quot;last year.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since Oster discusses a <a href="http://www.wrrh308.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/JAMA-Study.pdf" rel="nofollow">different paper</a>, I doubt she reads SSC. Indeed, her paper is a month newer than Scott&#8217;s first paper, that presumably prompted him. I don&#8217;t know why she claims it is from &#8220;last year.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: gwern</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/18/confounder-of-the-day-how-sexy-your-parents-were/#comment-63990</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gwern]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2014 00:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=1870#comment-63990</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s easy to look up sperm freezing, and it&#039;s a heck of a lot easier than storing eggs. My estimate was that 20 years or so of storage will run you a few thousand dollars total (it&#039;s something like $100/$200 a year for a few vials at a cryobank); not much at all, and the real expense will be making use of the sperm...

As for safety: remember the lower rate of birth defects with sperm donors. That implies limits on how much damage freezing could do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s easy to look up sperm freezing, and it&#8217;s a heck of a lot easier than storing eggs. My estimate was that 20 years or so of storage will run you a few thousand dollars total (it&#8217;s something like $100/$200 a year for a few vials at a cryobank); not much at all, and the real expense will be making use of the sperm&#8230;</p>
<p>As for safety: remember the lower rate of birth defects with sperm donors. That implies limits on how much damage freezing could do.</p>
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		<title>By: gwern</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/18/confounder-of-the-day-how-sexy-your-parents-were/#comment-63975</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gwern]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2014 23:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=1870#comment-63975</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A 538 blogger writes on this topic (interesting timing, wonder if she reads SSC?) in the post &quot;Are Older Men’s Sperm Really Any Worse?&quot; http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-older-mens-sperm-really-any-worse/ by Emily Oster:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The researchers ran regressions where they effectively compared children born to the same father at different times in his life, and they reported enormous changes in psychiatric problems. They found big effects on autism: Children born to men over 45 were 3.5 times as likely to be diagnosed with autism as those born to men aged 20 to 24.

...But let’s look a little more closely at the data and statistics here. The authors actually ran three analyses. First, they looked at the raw data and asked, on average, are children born to older fathers more likely to have ADHD? Second, they controlled for some demographics, such as education and income, and maternal age. And finally, they ran their “sibling fixed effects” regression. They reported their results in helpful graphs, and below we’ve replicated the one for ADHD. http://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/oster-bad-sperm-adhd.png In the first analysis using raw data, older men do not appear to be more likely to have children with ADHD. In the second analysis, when the researchers’ adjusted for some characteristics of the father, mother, and so on, we see that the children of older fathers are less likely to be diagnosed with ADHD. It’s only when we move to the siblings analysis that we see a huge positive effect of paternal age on a child’s likelihood of an ADHD diagnosis.

One theory for this gap in results is, of course, that the final analysis is the most accurate because it examines children under near ideal conditions: They were born to the same father at different times in his life. But when there is such a big difference in findings across analyses, it’s worth asking if something odd is going on. To answer this, we need to be clear on what this “sibling fixed effects” analysis really does. Consider a dad with two children, born four years apart. A basic fixed-effects model would ask whether the older child is less likely to have ADHD than the younger, and then attribute any observed difference to paternal age.

Running this basic analysis would have the same problem with maternal age that we discussed earlier. Because mothers often age along with fathers within a family, if we analyzed sibling pairs with the same mother and the same father, it would be impossible to separate the effects of maternal and paternal age. This paper does claim to separate these effects. How? The data includes half-siblings — children who share a father but not a mother.1 The authors can infer the effects of the father’s age separately from the mother’s age by looking within groups of siblings who share a father but not a mother. That means the huge positive effect seen in the chart above essentially tells us that a later-born child of a father who has multiple kids with multiple partners is more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD. In the paper, this difference is attributed to paternal age.

Why push so deeply into the statistics here? Seeing what the data is really saying lets us think a little more about what else might be happening. Now that we know the effects are driven by differences across half-siblings, we can start asking what else — beyond paternal age — might be driving the difference. Most obviously, we may wonder whether being a child in a fluid family situation could itself have an impact on ADHD risk (as other studies have found). Another, if more mundane, explanation for the big effect that paternal age appears to have on a child’s ADHD risk is that by striving so hard to isolate the effect of paternal age, the paper’s authors ended up studying a small number of individuals. And this makes it more likely that the results they saw were just due to chance.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A 538 blogger writes on this topic (interesting timing, wonder if she reads SSC?) in the post &#8220;Are Older Men’s Sperm Really Any Worse?&#8221; <a href="http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-older-mens-sperm-really-any-worse/" rel="nofollow">http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-older-mens-sperm-really-any-worse/</a> by Emily Oster:</p>
<blockquote><p>The researchers ran regressions where they effectively compared children born to the same father at different times in his life, and they reported enormous changes in psychiatric problems. They found big effects on autism: Children born to men over 45 were 3.5 times as likely to be diagnosed with autism as those born to men aged 20 to 24.</p>
<p>&#8230;But let’s look a little more closely at the data and statistics here. The authors actually ran three analyses. First, they looked at the raw data and asked, on average, are children born to older fathers more likely to have ADHD? Second, they controlled for some demographics, such as education and income, and maternal age. And finally, they ran their “sibling fixed effects” regression. They reported their results in helpful graphs, and below we’ve replicated the one for ADHD. <a href="http://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/oster-bad-sperm-adhd.png" rel="nofollow">http://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/oster-bad-sperm-adhd.png</a> In the first analysis using raw data, older men do not appear to be more likely to have children with ADHD. In the second analysis, when the researchers’ adjusted for some characteristics of the father, mother, and so on, we see that the children of older fathers are less likely to be diagnosed with ADHD. It’s only when we move to the siblings analysis that we see a huge positive effect of paternal age on a child’s likelihood of an ADHD diagnosis.</p>
<p>One theory for this gap in results is, of course, that the final analysis is the most accurate because it examines children under near ideal conditions: They were born to the same father at different times in his life. But when there is such a big difference in findings across analyses, it’s worth asking if something odd is going on. To answer this, we need to be clear on what this “sibling fixed effects” analysis really does. Consider a dad with two children, born four years apart. A basic fixed-effects model would ask whether the older child is less likely to have ADHD than the younger, and then attribute any observed difference to paternal age.</p>
<p>Running this basic analysis would have the same problem with maternal age that we discussed earlier. Because mothers often age along with fathers within a family, if we analyzed sibling pairs with the same mother and the same father, it would be impossible to separate the effects of maternal and paternal age. This paper does claim to separate these effects. How? The data includes half-siblings — children who share a father but not a mother.1 The authors can infer the effects of the father’s age separately from the mother’s age by looking within groups of siblings who share a father but not a mother. That means the huge positive effect seen in the chart above essentially tells us that a later-born child of a father who has multiple kids with multiple partners is more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD. In the paper, this difference is attributed to paternal age.</p>
<p>Why push so deeply into the statistics here? Seeing what the data is really saying lets us think a little more about what else might be happening. Now that we know the effects are driven by differences across half-siblings, we can start asking what else — beyond paternal age — might be driving the difference. Most obviously, we may wonder whether being a child in a fluid family situation could itself have an impact on ADHD risk (as other studies have found). Another, if more mundane, explanation for the big effect that paternal age appears to have on a child’s ADHD risk is that by striving so hard to isolate the effect of paternal age, the paper’s authors ended up studying a small number of individuals. And this makes it more likely that the results they saw were just due to chance.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: nyan sandwich</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/18/confounder-of-the-day-how-sexy-your-parents-were/#comment-63966</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nyan sandwich]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2014 23:48:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=1870#comment-63966</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Seriously? Scott why do you have so much spam?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seriously? Scott why do you have so much spam?</p>
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		<title>By: nyan sandwich</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/18/confounder-of-the-day-how-sexy-your-parents-were/#comment-63965</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nyan sandwich]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2014 23:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=1870#comment-63965</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;The children of older fathers therefore end up with a higher mutational load and more likelihood of mental disorders – not to mention a host of other issues like lower IQ, less physical ability, decreased health, et cetera. It’s very plausible and according to the Danish study the child of a 45 year old father is 1.5x more likely to develop schizophrenia and 1.8x more likely to develop autism compared to the child of a 25 year old father – not a subtle effect!

Wat. Genetic load doesn&#039;t work like that. If there were enough mutations in a single generation to be significantly noticeable, the species would be utterly unmaintainable without seriously strong eugenics.

As it is, the ratio between background mutational load and the amount generated every generation is probably around 10-30 times at least. That is, we all have the equivalent of at least 10-30 generations of mutational load, with variance between people probably on the order of 5-10 generations at least, so the effect of an additional generation is probably not so significant.

It would be good to do real calculation with real numbers, or even find some data, but I don&#039;t buy it for now.

That said, this is all assuming we don&#039;t control for the genetic load of the parents. If we did control for the genetic load of the parents, we could measure the generational mutations.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;The children of older fathers therefore end up with a higher mutational load and more likelihood of mental disorders – not to mention a host of other issues like lower IQ, less physical ability, decreased health, et cetera. It’s very plausible and according to the Danish study the child of a 45 year old father is 1.5x more likely to develop schizophrenia and 1.8x more likely to develop autism compared to the child of a 25 year old father – not a subtle effect!</p>
<p>Wat. Genetic load doesn&#8217;t work like that. If there were enough mutations in a single generation to be significantly noticeable, the species would be utterly unmaintainable without seriously strong eugenics.</p>
<p>As it is, the ratio between background mutational load and the amount generated every generation is probably around 10-30 times at least. That is, we all have the equivalent of at least 10-30 generations of mutational load, with variance between people probably on the order of 5-10 generations at least, so the effect of an additional generation is probably not so significant.</p>
<p>It would be good to do real calculation with real numbers, or even find some data, but I don&#8217;t buy it for now.</p>
<p>That said, this is all assuming we don&#8217;t control for the genetic load of the parents. If we did control for the genetic load of the parents, we could measure the generational mutations.</p>
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		<title>By: dhill</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/18/confounder-of-the-day-how-sexy-your-parents-were/#comment-59557</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dhill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2014 08:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I think this BPD may camouflage as being hot and then: http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-hot-crazy-solid-state-drive-scale/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this BPD may camouflage as being hot and then: <a href="http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-hot-crazy-solid-state-drive-scale/" rel="nofollow">http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-hot-crazy-solid-state-drive-scale/</a></p>
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		<title>By: dhill</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/18/confounder-of-the-day-how-sexy-your-parents-were/#comment-59553</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dhill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2014 08:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=1870#comment-59553</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I read it as saying that it makes everyone less sexually attractive when young and then that stigma is only removed for some subset of older men.&quot;

@moridinamael Say that to porn industry, they must have gotten something seriously wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I read it as saying that it makes everyone less sexually attractive when young and then that stigma is only removed for some subset of older men.&#8221;</p>
<p>@moridinamael Say that to porn industry, they must have gotten something seriously wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: dhill</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/18/confounder-of-the-day-how-sexy-your-parents-were/#comment-59550</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dhill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2014 08:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I was wondering why you jump to the biological conclusion right from the start, when it comes to women, but fail to do so with men. Then I read to the end and it somehow corrected. Are K-type men so forgotten today?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was wondering why you jump to the biological conclusion right from the start, when it comes to women, but fail to do so with men. Then I read to the end and it somehow corrected. Are K-type men so forgotten today?</p>
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		<title>By: Randy M</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/18/confounder-of-the-day-how-sexy-your-parents-were/#comment-58883</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Randy M]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2014 17:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Well, spammy links to lesswrong, so maybe they are making progress with friendlier ai.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, spammy links to lesswrong, so maybe they are making progress with friendlier ai.</p>
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