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	<title>Comments on: Book Review: After Virtue</title>
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	<description>In a mad world, all blogging is psychiatry blogging</description>
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		<title>By: Meredith L. Patterson</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/10/book-review-after-virtue-or-somebody-here-is-really-confused-and-i-just-hope-its-not-me/#comment-14139</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Meredith L. Patterson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2013 22:58:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=392#comment-14139</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh my. This may get long.

So, I&#039;m a formal language theorist and computer security researcher. One of the most practical results of my research has been the observation that if two implementations of the same protocol differ slightly, such that they are actually implementing grammars for mostly-mutually-intelligible &quot;dialects&quot; of the same formal language, this can lead to all sorts of interesting shenanigans. (We broke SSL this way; the paper is in Financial Crypto 2010.)

One naive but (apparently) simple way around this problem is, of course, the (software) monoculture: if everyone runs Windows on both client and server, then of course there won&#039;t ever be any mistranslation-based vulnerabilities ... until, of course, Microsoft end-of-lifes Windows XP and hundreds of businesses are still stuck on it, not to mention a good chunk of China, and of course IE 6 and IE 8 speak the exact same dialects of HTTP and HTML, right? And those are totally the same dialect that every version of IIS speaks, right? And so does every other webserver written in Java or Ruby or whatever and ... yeah, you see where this ends up.

So, too, I think, with a monoculture of moral traditions, but I think &lt;a href=&quot;http://xkcd.com/915/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Randall Munroe&#039;s take on aesthetic traditions suffices&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh my. This may get long.</p>
<p>So, I&#8217;m a formal language theorist and computer security researcher. One of the most practical results of my research has been the observation that if two implementations of the same protocol differ slightly, such that they are actually implementing grammars for mostly-mutually-intelligible &#8220;dialects&#8221; of the same formal language, this can lead to all sorts of interesting shenanigans. (We broke SSL this way; the paper is in Financial Crypto 2010.)</p>
<p>One naive but (apparently) simple way around this problem is, of course, the (software) monoculture: if everyone runs Windows on both client and server, then of course there won&#8217;t ever be any mistranslation-based vulnerabilities &#8230; until, of course, Microsoft end-of-lifes Windows XP and hundreds of businesses are still stuck on it, not to mention a good chunk of China, and of course IE 6 and IE 8 speak the exact same dialects of HTTP and HTML, right? And those are totally the same dialect that every version of IIS speaks, right? And so does every other webserver written in Java or Ruby or whatever and &#8230; yeah, you see where this ends up.</p>
<p>So, too, I think, with a monoculture of moral traditions, but I think <a href="http://xkcd.com/915/" rel="nofollow">Randall Munroe&#8217;s take on aesthetic traditions suffices</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Is the morality of religious believers really as twisted as it often appears?</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/10/book-review-after-virtue-or-somebody-here-is-really-confused-and-i-just-hope-its-not-me/#comment-9865</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Is the morality of religious believers really as twisted as it often appears?]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Apr 2013 19:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[[...] in a comment on Scott Alexander&#8217;s review of After Virtue, I said that the book&#8217;s dismissive attitude [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] in a comment on Scott Alexander&#8217;s review of After Virtue, I said that the book&#8217;s dismissive attitude [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Luke</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/10/book-review-after-virtue-or-somebody-here-is-really-confused-and-i-just-hope-its-not-me/#comment-3588</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Luke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:48:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=392#comment-3588</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt; MacIntyre is considered one of the greatest living philosophers, and After Virtue one of the century’s greatest works on ethics. Just on priors I’m more likely to be misunderstanding him than he is to be talking nonsense. Even people I respect – including Catholics from the Patheos community and a few rationalists from the Less Wrong community – recommend MacIntyre.

In that case, you&#039;re miscalibrated about (1) the ability of the philosophical community to identify their own greatest works and researchers, and about (2) the degree to which your &quot;respect&quot; for people correlates with their philosophical ability.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; MacIntyre is considered one of the greatest living philosophers, and After Virtue one of the century’s greatest works on ethics. Just on priors I’m more likely to be misunderstanding him than he is to be talking nonsense. Even people I respect – including Catholics from the Patheos community and a few rationalists from the Less Wrong community – recommend MacIntyre.</p>
<p>In that case, you&#8217;re miscalibrated about (1) the ability of the philosophical community to identify their own greatest works and researchers, and about (2) the degree to which your &#8220;respect&#8221; for people correlates with their philosophical ability.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Torek</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/10/book-review-after-virtue-or-somebody-here-is-really-confused-and-i-just-hope-its-not-me/#comment-3487</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Torek]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Apr 2013 16:48:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Thanks!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: yli</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/10/book-review-after-virtue-or-somebody-here-is-really-confused-and-i-just-hope-its-not-me/#comment-3425</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[yli]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=392#comment-3425</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just a quick note on one thing: utility aggregation obviously shouldn&#039;t even satisfy condition 2 of Arrow&#039;s Impossibility Theorem, which is &quot;If every voter&#039;s preference between X and Y remains unchanged, then the group&#039;s preference between X and Y will also remain unchanged&quot;. Imagine we want to decide whether to make soup or pizza for Alice and Bob. Alice really hates pizza and loves soup. Bob slightly prefers pizza to soup. So we should give them soup. Now Alice learns to appreciate pizza and gets a bit bored with soup, but still slightly prefers soup to pizza, while Bob becomes more extreme in his love of pizza and doesn&#039;t want to eat anything else ever again. Now we should give them pizza. But this violates the condition, because everyone&#039;s preference ordering between pizza and soup remained the same, but we still changed from soup to pizza.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a quick note on one thing: utility aggregation obviously shouldn&#8217;t even satisfy condition 2 of Arrow&#8217;s Impossibility Theorem, which is &#8220;If every voter&#8217;s preference between X and Y remains unchanged, then the group&#8217;s preference between X and Y will also remain unchanged&#8221;. Imagine we want to decide whether to make soup or pizza for Alice and Bob. Alice really hates pizza and loves soup. Bob slightly prefers pizza to soup. So we should give them soup. Now Alice learns to appreciate pizza and gets a bit bored with soup, but still slightly prefers soup to pizza, while Bob becomes more extreme in his love of pizza and doesn&#8217;t want to eat anything else ever again. Now we should give them pizza. But this violates the condition, because everyone&#8217;s preference ordering between pizza and soup remained the same, but we still changed from soup to pizza.</p>
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		<title>By: Gilbert</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/10/book-review-after-virtue-or-somebody-here-is-really-confused-and-i-just-hope-its-not-me/#comment-3412</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gilbert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=392#comment-3412</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In all bluntness, my evaluation of your competence is very similar to yours of mine. So a few last words for the audience, an then I&#039;ll be gone from this particular discussion and nobody can accuse me of having left because of something unanswerable.

Used on inhomogeneous cakes and particularly if the other party&#039;s preferences are unknown your cake dividing algorithm &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt; have the problems you claim it avoids. The audience can see this without much math. For example, I might prefer vanilla and you might prefer chocolate except I &lt;i&gt;think&lt;/i&gt; you also prefer vanilla. The cake is half chocolate and half vanilla. So I divide it giving both lots equal parts of chocolate and vanilla and then it doesn&#039;t matter which lot you chose, and we both would have done better by giving me all the vanilla and you all the chocolate. In math-speak that means the division is not Pareto-optimal. That particular problem wouldn&#039;t occur if we both new each other&#039;s preferences, but then suppose the cake has only one indivisible good part and is otherwise gross. Then the chooser will get the good part and the divider will get only junk. In math-speak that&#039;s dictatorship. 

I don&#039;t see what your coin example is about, but some interpretation of it probably can be made into an example of Arrow&#039;s theorem. That definitely doesn&#039;t mean the theorem is &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; about coins.

In that interview - and, free strategy advice, you could really have clicked through to the actual interview rather than making it obvious you&#039;re getting your entire subject knowledge from a Wikipedia article on a political subject - Arrow is talking about practical real-life voting systems and what kind of trade-offs to make from a least bad perspective. In that context it&#039;s fairly clear there  is more information &lt;i&gt;on the problem approval voting choses to solve&lt;/i&gt;, but no pretension that it is isomorphic to the original problem of preference or utility aggregation. I&#039;ve actually read Arrow saying ordinality doesn&#039;t help when he actually was writing about preference aggregation in some paper, but I don&#039;t have it at hand right now so I guess you are free to disbelieve me. 

With that I&#039;ll leave it to the audience to make their minds up about which if any of us two knows what he&#039;s talking about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In all bluntness, my evaluation of your competence is very similar to yours of mine. So a few last words for the audience, an then I&#8217;ll be gone from this particular discussion and nobody can accuse me of having left because of something unanswerable.</p>
<p>Used on inhomogeneous cakes and particularly if the other party&#8217;s preferences are unknown your cake dividing algorithm <i>does</i> have the problems you claim it avoids. The audience can see this without much math. For example, I might prefer vanilla and you might prefer chocolate except I <i>think</i> you also prefer vanilla. The cake is half chocolate and half vanilla. So I divide it giving both lots equal parts of chocolate and vanilla and then it doesn&#8217;t matter which lot you chose, and we both would have done better by giving me all the vanilla and you all the chocolate. In math-speak that means the division is not Pareto-optimal. That particular problem wouldn&#8217;t occur if we both new each other&#8217;s preferences, but then suppose the cake has only one indivisible good part and is otherwise gross. Then the chooser will get the good part and the divider will get only junk. In math-speak that&#8217;s dictatorship. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see what your coin example is about, but some interpretation of it probably can be made into an example of Arrow&#8217;s theorem. That definitely doesn&#8217;t mean the theorem is <i>only</i> about coins.</p>
<p>In that interview &#8211; and, free strategy advice, you could really have clicked through to the actual interview rather than making it obvious you&#8217;re getting your entire subject knowledge from a Wikipedia article on a political subject &#8211; Arrow is talking about practical real-life voting systems and what kind of trade-offs to make from a least bad perspective. In that context it&#8217;s fairly clear there  is more information <i>on the problem approval voting choses to solve</i>, but no pretension that it is isomorphic to the original problem of preference or utility aggregation. I&#8217;ve actually read Arrow saying ordinality doesn&#8217;t help when he actually was writing about preference aggregation in some paper, but I don&#8217;t have it at hand right now so I guess you are free to disbelieve me. </p>
<p>With that I&#8217;ll leave it to the audience to make their minds up about which if any of us two knows what he&#8217;s talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Knight</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/10/book-review-after-virtue-or-somebody-here-is-really-confused-and-i-just-hope-its-not-me/#comment-3407</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Douglas Knight]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:08:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=392#comment-3407</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When I said &quot;divide a cake&quot; I meant not cutting in half by volume, but the procedure for dividing an inhomogeneous cake. Namely, one party divides it into two parts and the second party chooses one of those parts. The whole point of this procedure is that the parties might have wildly different preferences; indeed, that they might be ignorant of each other&#039;s preferences.

As to the rest, you simply have no idea what Arrow&#039;s theorem says. In particular, it does say that it impossible to divide a pile of coins, based purely on the preferences of which agents would prefer to have or not have which coins.

PS - &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_theorem#cite_note-2&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Arrow himself&lt;/a&gt; says that the theorem does not apply to cardinal systems.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I said &#8220;divide a cake&#8221; I meant not cutting in half by volume, but the procedure for dividing an inhomogeneous cake. Namely, one party divides it into two parts and the second party chooses one of those parts. The whole point of this procedure is that the parties might have wildly different preferences; indeed, that they might be ignorant of each other&#8217;s preferences.</p>
<p>As to the rest, you simply have no idea what Arrow&#8217;s theorem says. In particular, it does say that it impossible to divide a pile of coins, based purely on the preferences of which agents would prefer to have or not have which coins.</p>
<p>PS &#8211; <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_theorem#cite_note-2" rel="nofollow">Arrow himself</a> says that the theorem does not apply to cardinal systems.</p>
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		<title>By: Gilbert</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/10/book-review-after-virtue-or-somebody-here-is-really-confused-and-i-just-hope-its-not-me/#comment-3388</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gilbert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Apr 2013 11:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=392#comment-3388</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[(1) Nope. Just replace every instance of a &lt;_i b with u_i(a)&lt;u_i(b) and all the standard proofs of Arrow&#039;s theorem translate straightforwordly to the cardinal case. 
(2) Preference rankings also (can) allow ties, but the Pareto rule is not compatible with ties &lt;i&gt;in certain places&lt;/i&gt; either for social preference ranks or for social utility functions. Of course you can just say the social utility function is 42 for every possible outcome. But naively one would expect a social utility function to, for example,  assign higher utility to not torturing everyone to death than to doing so. Dictatorship is a solution, but then remember a dictator in the mathematically relevant meaning of the term imposes the entire preference schedule and not just some single preference. So yeah, we can pick someone and call his utility the utility of society without violating Arrow&#039;s theorem. But nay, I don&#039;t think that&#039;s what anyone really means when they talk of utility aggregation. 

Your cake and money examples both assume that both parties have identical preference schedules over possible resource baskets. That is plausible if there is only one resource (cake and money respectively in your examples) and Arrow&#039;s theorem does indeed not ban aggregation of preferences basically identical in that way. But then utilitarianism working in all cases except where people have different preferences doesn&#039;t sound that hot either.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(1) Nope. Just replace every instance of a &lt;_i b with u_i(a)&lt;u_i(b) and all the standard proofs of Arrow&#039;s theorem translate straightforwordly to the cardinal case.<br />
(2) Preference rankings also (can) allow ties, but the Pareto rule is not compatible with ties <i>in certain places</i> either for social preference ranks or for social utility functions. Of course you can just say the social utility function is 42 for every possible outcome. But naively one would expect a social utility function to, for example,  assign higher utility to not torturing everyone to death than to doing so. Dictatorship is a solution, but then remember a dictator in the mathematically relevant meaning of the term imposes the entire preference schedule and not just some single preference. So yeah, we can pick someone and call his utility the utility of society without violating Arrow&#8217;s theorem. But nay, I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s what anyone really means when they talk of utility aggregation. </p>
<p>Your cake and money examples both assume that both parties have identical preference schedules over possible resource baskets. That is plausible if there is only one resource (cake and money respectively in your examples) and Arrow&#8217;s theorem does indeed not ban aggregation of preferences basically identical in that way. But then utilitarianism working in all cases except where people have different preferences doesn&#8217;t sound that hot either.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Knight</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/10/book-review-after-virtue-or-somebody-here-is-really-confused-and-i-just-hope-its-not-me/#comment-3340</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Douglas Knight]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Apr 2013 21:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://slatestarcodex.com/?p=392#comment-3340</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[(1) Arrow&#039;s theorem requires the ordinal aggregation depend only the ordinal preferences of the voters; changing the utility function of the voter can change the ordinal aggregation preference without changing; (2) Utility functions allow ties, indeed require them, though in some examples they don&#039;t come up in the domain of comparison and in a larger class you can break them using dictatorship.

The way to understand the conflict between Arrow&#039;s theorem and utilitarian aggregation is to think about the case of two parties. Everyone knows how to split a cake and everyone knows that there&#039;s no way to adjudicate between two voters electing one of them dictator. 

Or a formal model: the question of how to split a pot of money (infinitely divisible, or just two coins), with square root utility. The aggregate utility function prefers more equitable divisions to less, with equal division the maximum. It is not a total order, being indifferent between (a,1-a) and (1-a,a), but we can break that tie by letting the first player choose between them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(1) Arrow&#8217;s theorem requires the ordinal aggregation depend only the ordinal preferences of the voters; changing the utility function of the voter can change the ordinal aggregation preference without changing; (2) Utility functions allow ties, indeed require them, though in some examples they don&#8217;t come up in the domain of comparison and in a larger class you can break them using dictatorship.</p>
<p>The way to understand the conflict between Arrow&#8217;s theorem and utilitarian aggregation is to think about the case of two parties. Everyone knows how to split a cake and everyone knows that there&#8217;s no way to adjudicate between two voters electing one of them dictator. </p>
<p>Or a formal model: the question of how to split a pot of money (infinitely divisible, or just two coins), with square root utility. The aggregate utility function prefers more equitable divisions to less, with equal division the maximum. It is not a total order, being indifferent between (a,1-a) and (1-a,a), but we can break that tie by letting the first player choose between them.</p>
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		<title>By: Gilbert</title>
		<link>http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/10/book-review-after-virtue-or-somebody-here-is-really-confused-and-i-just-hope-its-not-me/#comment-3334</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gilbert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Apr 2013 20:47:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Um, care to point out the math error? Or, less politely, did you actually read that thread beyond the first reply?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Um, care to point out the math error? Or, less politely, did you actually read that thread beyond the first reply?</p>
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