Even when it comes to penalizing material action, ostracism is apt to be counterproductive. Robert Lifton identified one of the regular features of ideological totalism as milieu control — limiting which information and viewpoints someone is exposed to in order to regulate their thought. Whether or not a cult is involved, ostracizing people for their opinions, or for actions reflecting those opinions, effects exactly such milieu control and makes it less likely the person will change their mind.

I may feel revulsion at the thought of socializing with some people in view of their actions or opinions, but I’m inclined to view this as a personal weakness than some kind of moral statement. I recall the story I heard on *Humankind* about the rabbi who initiated conversations with a KKK member and over an extended period of time brought him around.

I think the consequentialist claim for ostracizing certain people is more about rationalizing discomfort with them than it is an evidence-based conviction.

Report comment

Report comment

I think many people, and not just in other people’s camps, can’t honestly claim the same. I know my own exasperated tempers, and I have to say there is something beautifully otherworldly about somebody who is just interested in the truth for its own sake.

So, kudos for a great publication!

Report comment

Between social signalling (being “tough on Jews”), feeding back on your own propaganda, bureaucratic target fixation and inertia, a few genuine fanatics, and the embattled hardening of the heart on the losing side of a total war, genocide just happened.

To some that may seem exculpatory, but really to me it’s ultimate horror: “Genocide happens”.

Report comment

Nice idea, but empathy and morality need not correlate. A serial killer has no problem cutting you up personally, but putting a beloved pet down yourself would be bloody hard, even if you intellectually understand it’s for the best.

Besides, what about the people who want to hold positions on issues without undergoing extensive training 😉

Report comment

Report comment

And, of course, people who’s careers are based around something are going to be harder to persuade. Excellent theory!

Report comment

A person who eats meat should be willing to kill or watch said piggy die, or else not eat pork. A person who is pro-choice should be willing to perform one zirself. Anyone who wants to mutilate their son, needs to watch and support him during. Anyone who wants to keep grandma alive after she can’t think, eat, or wipe herself anymore needs to take care of her zirself, not stick her in a home (shirking the work and responsiblity). Anyone who would be called pro-choice should be willing to weild the curette or give those pills.

It’s easiest just to let each be zir own, then these issues wouldn’t need to be debated at all. When did political start infringing so much on the personal? We started out in this country with much freedom.

Report comment

I think vegans can make a good point on consent grounds. […] And even now farm animals are mostly bread

That’s convenient for the vegans :-).

Report comment

Dutch euthanasia: Given that every year there are thousands of instances of euthanasia in the Netherlands, and that there are thousands of “cognitively disabled” people there, I really don’t see how the fact (I’m assuming the figures are correct) that there were ~50 people in both groups in 2010 indicates that the Dutch are “systematically murdering cognitively disabled people”. (If I were in the early stages of dementia, I’d be seriously considering death too.)

I think it’s entirely possible that the Dutch euthanasia regulations have led to some very bad things. But your pointing me at that article makes me think it less likely that the harm outweighs the good, because it’s so unconvincing and I’m sure you’d have preferred to link to something more convincing if you had it.

The case of the nun does indeed sound very wrong. I can’t help noting, though, that the actual evidence here is really weak: Hendin relates (giving no evidence) the story of an unnamed “euthanasia advocate” who in turn relates (giving no evidence, so far as we’re told) the story of an unnamed doctor who killed a nun a few days before she’d have died naturally. None of that means it isn’t true in every particular, but I wouldn’t bet on it with much confidence.

I notice that I’m falling into the trap I warned against elsewhere in the discussion: allowing it to be derailed from the (more interesting) question of how to divide “tolerable” from “intolerable”, onto one or another particular object-level issue. So I’m going to leave it here.

Report comment